Talks about otome games, drama cds, and occasionally provides advice? Running away endlessly from my backlog of hobbies.

Ilinox

"White skin vs Fair skin

I don't totally understand when people get upset when someone calls asian heroines from otome games "White".

What I get is that people get angry because calling then white is pointing at their etnicity/race and to be "white" is to be either american/westener/european.

But when I read that someone gets called "white" for me is because "they have fair skin" but that's my understanding. My mother tongue is not English so I don't get it.

I also understand that the MCs from asian games are asian, but I'm not buying that all asian women are "white", because having white/fair skin is a beauty standard around the world.

I think is interesting when I find games with Black/Brown MCs by default, but I know those options exist because they are either from western/european games.

It makes me conflicted because I don't know what's the right wording to discuss the topic without feeling I'm going to get dogpilled for being racist.

Like as someone who is brown, I really like when I see more MCs that look like me, and I praise when I get the option. I also understand this is purely aesthetic, since the MC is normally just a blank, what matters if what she has to tells us in the story.

i also don't expect that a game is going to gimme the option of changing skin colors, when every game is build to catter to the audience of the country it was developed, so a French game is going to catter to French people first and a Korean game is going to catter to Korean people first.

I also think the skin color factor is just another thing to add to the hate MC's get. Like there is this western dating sim were the MC by default is black with a black familly, but a lot of the players were reacting is a weird way to this fact, cracking jokes about how "the MC is black, but I'm making mine to look the most albino/whites ever lol" and in general a lot of rejection on her canon appereance.

Back to the original point, I just want to understand better so I can discuss this topics in a better way."

I've put your original ask here for context, so everyone can decide for themselves. In my opinion, you already answered your own question because you can differentiate between the use of the adjectives "white" and "fair/pale". When the word white is used with skin color it has always had the connotation of referring to race, so just use fair and pale skin if you're specifically talking about skin color.

Everyone seems to misunderstand that when I say "Asian beauty standards" I'm justifying how CN heroines have to look that way. They don't. However, you do not just overturn centuries of ideal beauty standards by providing a few options while juggling the consideration of how your game has to meet certain key performance indicators (KPIs) or shareholders will put it on the chopping block.

Like what the Ozempic discourse has revealed, no matter how much we promote body positivity, everyone still has an "ideal aesthetic" due to their cultural upbringing and evolutionary biology. People without blemishes and pockmarks will always be more attractive because our primitive monkey brains see these as potential signs of illness. Meanwhile, classism will always exist and generally uncalloused tender fair skin will be praised over calloused rough sun-damaged skin. Society will always lean towards an "ideal" sense of beauty, no matter who or where we are, and this "ideal" gets caught and amplified by corporations. All of this is what I mean when I say "Asian beauty standards" and why large corporation games have to use as many things as they can to earn money, including tapping into people's power fantasies.

Sometimes, it's not even that serious, people would just prefer to see a beautiful man and beautiful woman together in an otome game, because they don't self-insert. In this case, once again we return to the fact that "ideal beauty standards" are inescapable for everyone.

Personally though, I think adding skin color options in games that cannot be separated from their source culture to be token representation, and is that any better? If I play a game where I can make a Chinese avatar but everything they do and celebrate are European things, then am I really getting represented? I might as well just make an Original Character at that point to fit into the universe.

I don't totally understand when people get upset when someone calls asian heroines from otome games "White".

What I get is that people get angry because calling then white is pointing at their etnicity/race and to be "white" is to be either american/westener/european.

But when I read that someone gets called "white" for me is because "they have fair skin" but that's my understanding. My mother tongue is not English so I don't get it.

I also understand that the MCs from asian games are asian, but I'm not buying that all asian women are "white", because having white/fair skin is a beauty standard around the world.

I think is interesting when I find games with Black/Brown MCs by default, but I know those options exist because they are either from western/european games.

It makes me conflicted because I don't know what's the right wording to discuss the topic without feeling I'm going to get dogpilled for being racist.

Like as someone who is brown, I really like when I see more MCs that look like me, and I praise when I get the option. I also understand this is purely aesthetic, since the MC is normally just a blank, what matters if what she has to tells us in the story.

i also don't expect that a game is going to gimme the option of changing skin colors, when every game is build to catter to the audience of the country it was developed, so a French game is going to catter to French people first and a Korean game is going to catter to Korean people first.

I also think the skin color factor is just another thing to add to the hate MC's get. Like there is this western dating sim were the MC by default is black with a black familly, but a lot of the players were reacting is a weird way to this fact, cracking jokes about how "the MC is black, but I'm making mine to look the most albino/whites ever lol" and in general a lot of rejection on her canon appereance.

Back to the original point, I just want to understand better so I can discuss this topics in a better way.

I've put your original ask here for context, so everyone can decide for themselves. In my opinion, you already answered your own question because you can differentiate between the use of the adjectives "white" and "fair/pale". When the word white is used with skin color it has always had the connotation of referring to race, so just use fair and pale skin if you're specifically talking about skin color.

Everyone seems to misunderstand that when I say "Asian beauty standards" I'm justifying how CN heroines have to look that way. They don't. However, you do not just overturn centuries of ideal beauty standards by providing a few options while juggling the consideration of how your game has to meet certain key performance indicators (KPIs) or shareholders will put it on the chopping block.

Like what the Ozempic discourse has revealed, no matter how much we promote body positivity, everyone still has an "ideal aesthetic" due to their cultural upbringing and evolutionary biology. People without blemishes and pockmarks will always be more attractive because our primitive monkey brains see these as potential signs of illness. Meanwhile, classism will always exist and generally uncalloused tender fair skin will be praised over calloused rough sun-damaged skin. Society will always lean towards an "ideal" sense of beauty, no matter who or where we are, and this "ideal" gets caught and amplified by corporations. 

 is what I mean when I say "Asian beauty standards" and why large corporation games have to use as many things as they can to earn money, including tapping into people's power fantasies.

Sometimes, it's not even that serious, people would just prefer to see a beautiful man and beautiful woman together in an otome game, because they don't self-insert. In this case, once again we return to the fact that "ideal beauty standards" are inescapable for everyone.

Personally though, I think adding skin color options in games that cannot be separated from their source culture to be token representation, and is that any better? If I play a game where I can make a Chinese avatar but everything they do and celebrate are European things, then am I really getting represented? I might as well just make an Original Character at that point to fit into the universe.

Also now I wonder if I really sound like the other anon. The anon talking bad about L&N and 2D games claimed to be african. I say I was brown (I'm latino) and that English is not my mother tongue (I really think my English is broken so IDK if I really sound like the other person)

I just saw you gonna leave the ask sitting there (or delete it) so maybe I'm gonna come back in other two weeks to try luck. But I'm going to add a few thing I didn't add in my first ask (white vs fair).

Maybe, I kinda regret saying the looks of the MC are just for aesthetic and that is more important what the MC has to say. I get it really depends of the case, but the examples you use (L&N) is obvious that the MC is going to represent the beauty standard of the country, since also you mention is a game that is heavy in talking about chinese culture. So it makes total sense  that she has to look the way it looks because is for that public. Adding a black or brown skinned MC in a game like that is going to be off (and I don't even know how people would react).

I remember one time I played a dating sim where the MC was dead and was in a fictional underworld (also all the dating option were dead people) and the aesthetic of the game was very fairytale-like, so the MC was just a black siluette. The hair and clothing was colorful but she was just a blank. I find this choice very interesting indeed, she can be whatever you want, she hasn't skin color or race.

I also there was this dating sim from Spain, where the devs decided to add three race options for the MC: african, asian and caucasian. It was also a interesting choice to add, all this three options where added as the default to pick.

Them I remember when I used to play Midnight Cinderella and for the English version, you could change the color skin of the avatar. Later I learned this is something that was exclusive of the English version. Over this, only have to say that it was fun to have a black MC, but it was a pain to pick makeup for her because all the options where designed for the fair skin avatar I believe, so some looked terrible in the black skin.

Color skin options for the MC is normally something for the avatar when there is a wardrobe, and the illustrations of the game only show the default look of the MC (because adding customized illustrations is expensive and taxing, I guess LaDS gets away with it).

Still the main point for the first ask is that I see people read "white" and think "race" and I personslly read "white" and think "color skin" and just don't get it, why I understand something different (is really the same? Is different? How you make a difference?).

Ilinox

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